we'll see you back here tomorrow night. take it away. ta, take it away. tonight, well, hold on to your seats, the irs targeting scandal just got worse. >> targeting of tea party groups was taking place at headquarters in washington and nobody is in washington and nobody is >> there is nobody that's going to convince me that obamma was not involved. >> investigators are focusing on the role of this woman, a senior irs official, bagsed in washington, who says that she was in on the plan to give extra scrutiny to conservative groups. >> she told congressional investigators, she reviewed 20 to 30 applications going back as far as 2010 and she says some of the requests went unanswered for more than a year. >> remember what took place with the inspector general's audit? she sat in on almost every interview he did with potential people who were violating folks'

first amendment rights. she said, that's not how you get to the truth. >> the irs's upper management strategized about how to publicly address scrutiny of tea party and organizations that occurred in a question-and-answer session before the american bar association in early may. >> clearly when the government in any way shape or form uses its power to intimidate citizens who are donating to whatever their political belief -- republican or democrat -- that's a criminal activity. the fact they said it wasn't at the white house and then they later on said they did know at the white house. it's clearly on the front steps. >> i think it's one of the worst abuses of power imaginable when you think of the power of the irs. it was clearly used for political purposes to go after a particularring category of organizations. i think i have trouble believing two guys in cincinnati dreamed this scheme up. i just don't think that's true. >> a scandal rocks many in

washington, the oval office is doing -- dealing with a landslide, many fingers pointing directly at president. more americans are questioning whether president obama is an hon scpefts trustworthy leader. 48% say no, he is not honest. and 48% say they still have faith in the president. that's down, of course, from last month when 49% found the president honest. but a year ago, 51% said he was honest. in april, just after taking honest, 73% said the president was honest and trustworthy. allen west is here. >> always a pleasure. >> is the decline in the president's trustworthy number -- is that part of being a second-term president? or is the president earning this decline? >> i think he is earning this decline. when you look at the things mounting. talk about benghazi. machine has to say, why was

ambassador chris stevens in benghazi, a hotbed of radical islammism, was what the president's impact as far as the decision he should have been making? we have an ambassador coming under attack? who sent susan right out there to really tell a lie? why did he continue to tell that lie for two weeks afterward when univision and at the united nations isn't irs scandal is very huge. that's personal to a lot of people. you just don't see the president getting in front of this. you don't see the president really talking about the climate that is happening across his administration. but what do do you see? you see people getting promoted and going off, you know on taxpayer-paid vacations. so this feigned indignation is starting to wear thin. >> why do you think -- maybe he doesn't care? why should he care? he's not going to run again. the line that was famous in 20 very 9, senator mccain or

someone saying, i won. why should -- why should he care? you know, is it popularity? or i mean -- is it that he can't get the agenda passed? >> you are the president of the united states of america -- >> personal pride, is that what you are say ?ismght not personal pride, it should be the country's pride, the exceptionalism of this country. that would be as if i am a commanderave batallion and i see my batallion falling apart and not being able to meet its missions, but i am not carrying about it. you are the leader. you said, here i am to lead this great nation. if you don't hold yourself accountable to the american people, you are going to see this slide of slide. >> does he show he cares? >> i don't think he dis. just last week with the announcement of supplying arms to the rebels in syria, you had the deputy make that statement, not the president. i think he has to be able to

show that he cares. >> do you think that maybe he doesn't get it? because that is rather surprising, arming rebels, it could be a slippery slope. maybe we will be more engagedin syria, maybe yes, maybe no. but he is the commander in chief, it's stunning to most people that something so important as arming someone to overthrow another government, you would think that would be something that the president of the united states would speak to the american people about. >> you are talking about committing our resources. 30 years ago, we had an horrific event when we put the u.s. military forces in a civil war in lebanon with the baerate bombing, losing 238 marines. this is not something we should take lightly. when you watched with the g-8 summit, you can see the disdain on vladimir putin's face. it is not just the credibility here, but it's on the international arein amount of vladimir putin. he is ex-kgb and it's not

surprising that he would have disdain directed at the president of the united states. >> bithe thing is, i remember when there was a certain president that stood at the gates and told a russian soviet union leader to tear down this wall and the walla came down. so we are looking for that type of resolve, resiliency and moral courage and forthrightness in our president. we are not seeing it at home or on the international arena. i think that is starting to come to roost. >> do you think he knows that? >> i think that the president is surrounded by people who tell him he's doing great. i think he has been surrounded by media that continues to protect him and tells him he's doing great. but the man behind the curtain is being exposed. >> what do you think about the fact -- i blogged tonight on guyer goir that he -- gretawire that he is speaking to the people at the gate. but we ought to hear from him on

syria, as well as the nsa and explain to us, that thing, like trust us -- we are doing the right thing is not resonating with the american people. they don't trust the government on the nsa thing. >> you can't have drive-by trite comments and statements. you can't have any more teleprompter speeches. we need to have a window into the president, into his heart and talk to us as the american people. i think you see his approval rating doub at 44%. by the time he comes back from this africa vacation tcould be 41 or 42%. >> of course, congress is 10%, it almost can't get any lower. >> absolutely. but you see a failure in washington, d.c. our debt continues to grow. the deficit -- maybe you are reducing somewhat, but the debt to gdp ratio is bad. and the economy's not turning around. >> nice to see you. >> thank you. >> the irs. there is more trouble. new allegations that steve miller was up to his eyeballs in

trying to keep the ugly details of the targeting from you, going to far as to plot a coverup. we have a washington times reporter here. >> good to see you. >> explain to me where the former director of the irs fits into the scheme of minimizing or keeping the lid on what happened, what was exposed at the irs. >> well, according to testimony given to the congressional investigators by holly paz, essentially, lois lerner's deputy at the irs in washington, miss lerner and mr. miller had discussed some sort of plan to roll out the unfolding irs scandal. miss lerner knew about it at least as early at mid 2011 when according to the inspector general's report, when she was briefed on it and essentially said, we have to change these things. >> so they rolled out this phony thing where lois lerner went to the aba meeting and got a woman

lawyer, who is essentially her patsy to ask fer a phony question and that phony question was about the targeting. and this is in anticipation of the i.g. report coming out in a few days. and that sort of plot was also, according to miss paz, was hatched by the director of the irs? >> well, we don't know those -- we don't know those specifics. what we do know is that miss lerner and mr. miller were talking about how to roll it out. we -- we don't know that it was going to take place at that moment in that way. but given that the i.g. report benefits to come out, they basically had a choice, you know, try to roll it out in the ultimately awkward way that they did or wait the federal i.g. report to come down. they chose the former. i doubt they could have foreseen the blowup. >> here's one they missed.

in hatching their plot as to how to unroll it tooften the blow blow -- or miss lerper could have done the right thing and simply fixed it then. >> well. >> i mean, to their credit, 3 she did say, look, these... these flags -- these be on the lookout for terms tea party, 9/11 group -- these are inappropriate, get out of here in mid 2011. but she knew there was an i.g. investigation going on. as doesd mr. miller, which is why those conservations took place. i mean, she pled the fifth when she went before the house oversight committee because there is an ongoing department of justice review. but it also saves her from potential questions from people like, obviously darrell issa or jim jordan about this whole scheme which would -- my guess

would be incredibly embarrassing at the very least. >> embarrassing, that's mild. you know, there is a lot -- there is eye lot of phony stuff. miss paz says we weren't targeting people. it was using tea party, like a brand like kleenex. but it was a brand thing and it applied to everybody, has anybody at the irs identified any liberal groups that got this extra scrutiny? >> i think miss paz said there was at least one. >> one. out of -- how many conservative and tea party? >> well i think there were 300 total that were -- >> sort of hard to buy that it was a generic term excuse, if there was 1 to 300. anyway, david, thank you. nice to see you. >> thank you. >> congress grilling fbi director robert mueller over holly paz. jim jordan demanding answers. his question: why was paz sitting in on the investigation

at an irs targeting? here's how it all went down. >> well, let me ask you a couple of things. is it typically appropriate for the investigator to have the -- one of the central players in this -- miss holly paz, who was director of one of the key players at the division, sit in on almost all the interviews ins with employees in that division. is that typically how an investigation is done? >> i am not familiar with those circumstances. i understand what you are saying about the circumstance, not being familiar with it -- >> in your time as an investigator, is that how you would do interviews with the boss of the person you are trying to get information from -- is it appropriate -- the inspector general said that our staph -- staff has done, is it appropriate for her to collect the data and give it to the attorney general? >> i am not familiar -- >> if that happened, is that appropriate? >> i am not going to speculate. >> the latest irs charade

attempted coverup is climbing higher. everyone is wondering how high up it does go. >> okay. so it's interesting, they are investigating the irs and one of the people who knows something is this woman named paz. apparently, she sat in when they were interviewing, you are a former prosecutor, what do you think about this? >> i think it's absurd. you would never conduct an objective investigation with someone who is going to be a witness to all of this and toas a supervisor. this is a person you report. to you are asking the people to be straight. you might have to implicate her. no one will conduct an investigation this way. it just doesn't make any sense. >> you know what i find peculiar is the fact that -- on about the friday before the i.g. report came out, which showed the targeting, is that lois lerper appears before a meeting at the american bar association and she found some patsy, some woman

lawyer who said, ask me this question. i assume -- i thought that was a deliberate effort to sort of take the wind out of the sails of the report and make it look not as bad. >> i think it was a complete setup. obviously, it was completely contrived. so they knew the report was coming out. so we are going to anowrngs you know, have you bad news, you are going to announce it first -- >> they didn't announce it. they staged it. >> they knew it would be picked up and it was. as you recall that, afternoon twas picked up and went from there so they could say they disclosed it themselves. but that was so contrived. >> but if you listen to the reports that paz said in her interview is that lois lerner, according to her, lois lerner said to her that the head of the irs, miller, was well aware of this plot. there is nothing to prevent him from going before the cameras and not doing this charade and making the announcement that. would have been more honorable than -- >> absolutely. you can see an agency doing

that. but to set it with the aba to ask you a question that you know the answer to that you are going to give out to make this big announcement. and not to have the director, miller, to come out and say it -- that's why i happening the whole thing was just really a charade in how they did it. >> does it make you more suspicious, the way they rolled it out. or is it clumsy handling of a p.r. event? it makes me more suspicious. it's one thing to clumsily handle a press conference, you go out and give it. but to have someone set up, asking you a question in a conference, knowing it's going to be picked up, doing it that way. you think about it. you had to plot this out, greta. it wasn't something where you clipsily did something. >> wouldn't have you thought, months before, that that would have been a good plot on a solution like this, admit what is going on. >> -- exactly. >> that would have been a much better way to handle it. >> it would have been the best way to handle it.

it would have been a much more truthful way to handle it. frankly, i think it would have made people feel less suspicious about what's happening right now. the more we find out, the more questions there are. even with the testimony of holly paz, how it contradicts what miller and lerner said about washington's knowledge about what was happening. >> they wanted to stick it to cincinnati. >> exactly. >> the other thing she is reported as saying and i haven't seen the transcripts myself. but she is reported as saying that, that -- that -- in sort of rolling this out, is that it was -- something was being done by others. she is like, she clearly sets herself -- exonerates herself from this. she said, when we had any discussion, it was about a brand, like kleenex, but only one liberal group, versus 300, according to my last guest. >> from what i saw, she was trying to claim tea party was a generic term for political groups, which strikes me as

absurd. >> that wouldn't be so bad, if out of 300 groups, 150 -- >> if they were balanced, you could see that. but if you look at the groups that were targeted, it's clearly tea party, patriot, 9-12 and if you can come up with one, you are lucky. but hundreds on that end. so you are right fit were balanced, we might be able to believe that. but in light of the facts, it isn't believable. >> lois lerner will be back before the house committee. do you think he waived her fifth amendment? >> i clearly think she d. you would never let a witness come in. give their side of the story and not be subject to cross-examination and claim your fifth. you know from trying cases, it just wouldn't happen. i think she waived it. >> what she should have done is said the fifth and gone outside -- >> she could have done that. but she didn't. >> indeed. fire up gretawire.com. we want to know what you think, will irs commissioner steven

miller and lois lerner trying to pull a fast one with the phony, staged question? or was this a good-faith p.r. strategy? go to gretawire.com and vote. >> straight ahead, secret internet and phone spying on you -- the nsa claims it is key to fighting terror. edward snowden says congress is exaggerating its value. congresswoman michele bachmann is here. do you have faith in the irs? would you give them more money to implement health care? republicans have a new plan to keep them out of obamacare. do you think the world leaders are ready for a guys' night out isn't picture of president obama and vladimir putin. we may read your tweet on the air before the show is over. ph vo: i've always thought the best part about this country is that we get to create our future.

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. nsa secrets exposed. keith alexander testifying tomorrow before house intel. surveillance from 20 countries helped stop terror attacks. there a push to declassify more information on those attacks. >> good to see you. >> what are you going to ask -- what would you ask keith

alexander tomorrow, head of nsa. >> very important that he explains what the program is and what it isn't and what the concerns are that the public shares. right now, the public is absolutely and justifiably concerned. this is all about context, right? everything from benghazi to the irs to department of health and human services. initial story made it sown like all our e-mails were being read and our phone calls were listened to. i was in philadelphia, i had to give a big national security speech when i was up there. i didn't recognize the program that was being written about in the paper. when i found out what programs were later, i understood these programs, i knew these programs, and we had had a lot of evidence about them. >> here is the problem. they just get phone numbers, not content. >> two different programs.

>> there's the internet and the phone. >> no, the one program, 702, is very simply this. it is people on foreign soil who are engaging in foreign trust tooufts, not americans, they are foreigners, not on american soil, foreign soil, enfwajing in terrorist activities, that should be fully acceptable for anyone to look into their activities. >> as ian it, verizon is handing over information, right? that would be domesticic, right? >> i don't want to -- i'm on the intelligence committee. i don't want to say anything that's in the classified realm. i have to be very careful about what i say about them. somebody with a top security clearance divulged classified information. >> i got that. the one program --

>> that's the one program, people who are not on american soil, who are engaged in trump. >> the one we're upset about, the one wean to be domestically, and the president's response, trust us, and you talk about trust, an urs, incredible waste in the government. gsa and irs spending $50 million on parties the past two years. why should be trust the government? >> the president is bankrupt on the trust fak for. there is a ren why. people are appalled at what's going on in government. why should they trust them? capability for hacking, whether u.s. e-mails or phone calls, why should we trust them. be also know we are at war and islamic jihadists declare war on

the united states. let me say this. a separation between government scandal and the government trying to keep us safe. these are programs that actually do work and kept american people safe. >> if they work, this whole thing about a needle in a haystack, the most classic example, the tsavraevs, and all we had to do is look for c confirmati confirmation, grab their phones and websites to see if they are making bombs, buying pressure cookers. we were tipped off and even with that information we couldn't -- >> oh, i'm livid about that, greta. because i had asked a question of the fbi, did we check out the islamic society of boston? the radicalized mosque he was part of? the fbi chose not to talk to people connected with that

mosque. that's call willful blindness. we can't subordinate political security for political correctness. >> all of the people in my hometown at risk of phone numbers and internet, and you get tipped off for some guy and -- >> that's what's absurd. the most obvious information we have, we won't track down, we are subordinating political security to political correctness. we can't do that. >> thank you. coming up, the irs getting ready to manage your health plan? one senator ready to pull the emergency brake. obama care, creating jobs. this time, it isn't the irs, but you wont like this day calls you. to fight chronic osteoarthritis pain. to fight chronic low back pain.

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do you want to give the irs more power? how about this one. more money? senator john vorasso, a doctor, has a plan. >> i believe the irs cannot be trusted on the health care law, but yet they are the enforcers of the health care law. people have been anxious about the urs, now there is actual anger. the irs has lost its contradi credibility, as has the president. they have abused power and abused trust of the american people by was wasting all of this money, $50 million in conferences in a couple of years, $4 million on one conference, people have seen that terrible line dancing, the american taxpayers paid for that at a time of tough economic problems in this country. >> according to the budget for next year, $12.9 billion, and if

congress doesn't give them catch for the $440 million, the 2,000 employees, who happens in january? >> the enforcer of the health care laws are looking for over 16,000. 440 million will cover 2,000 more employees. i see no reason to fwuf them a single penny and let them deal with it. >> i can't see them giving $440 milli million. if the irs doesn't have the man power or cash to implement the health care, what happens? >> well, they will be slowed down in the process, which is

the goal hint this, do not reward them by giving them more money when we know they aren't responsible. the entire health care, greta, money put it in for irs agents to investigate you, but not enough to train people to be doctors and nurses to actually take care of you. >> that's a little messed up. there is a shortage of doctors, and there is nothing in there that allows enough doctors. >> there aren't enough doctors, nurses, p.a.s, nurse practitioners. the population of the country growing faster than the number of people being trained. life expectancy has fwrd you'lly increased. when she was born, the average life except aepectancexpectancy.

>> if they need $440 million to go toward implementation of health care, at some of time this will elm plowed. >> the urs is enforcer of the health care law. they want to make sure when you fill out the tax returns, you have to prove to them you have health insurance, not just any, but acceptable health care insurance. >> what is the dooms day scenario when they don't have the money to do this. >> max back us called it a coming train wreck, the ifrp rs very involved in just people trying to buy insurances on the exchanges. they go active october 1st, start purchasing on january 1st, when they push that button to send all the information they put into the computer to the data hub because of the irs, homeland security and social security, i can't imagine this will be ready to work.

the government has missed all so many on the health care law. they will mess this up too. >> plus, people don't trust the irs much right now. nice to see you, senator. >> thank you for having me. >> obama care creating jobs for lawyer lawyers. how is it that we're going to get more lawyers' jobs? >> it's maybe more that certain lawyers are busy at a time when a lot of lawyers are twiddling their thumbs, this is lawyers who specialize in pretty detailed regulatory aspects both of the health care reform bill and also some previous regulations coming down the pike for this industry. pretty heavily regulated as it is. >> so give me any sense of how much this means to the legal profession. maybe not necessarily in dollars and cents, but in terms of the job market or anything?

>> it's definitely helpful. some of the bigger law firms across the country are really beefing up their practices. one, squire sanders had perhaps even doubled the side of their practice, and also a boon for smaller lawyers and lawyers at little boutiques in less expensive areas. not the kind of work you can charge a ton of money, not sort of new york lawyer's prices. ist been quite a boon to some in the profession. >> a prediction on another way it will expand lawyers on this. the statute, at least when you've tried to sort to sift through it, it's incomprehensib incomprehensible. you can't understand it. it goes out to community and people try to get medical services, get in a fight, sue each other, the judge has to make a decision. and it turns out that maybe there is legal malpractice

involved. the legal mall tra will grow, because it's so complicated and people will make horrible predictions on all of the cases. >> i couldn't speak to that, but i can tell you certainly a number of, you know, hospitals, medical groups, insurance companies, they are certainly bringing on extra legal help to figure out exactly what they need to do to comply, and some are telling us costs are significant. they may slope off overtime. these are very complicated regulations. some expect it to stay pretty intense. >> who is going to pick up the cost of the lawyer. somebody will try to pass it off on somebody. who ends up holding the bag on this? the patients or the doctors? >> it will most likely be the share holders of the companies or the owners of the hospitals, those sorts of groups, whoever is paying for the lawyers. could get passed on to patient as well. >> more mergers in hospitals?

>> the key guiding principiple to keep costs down, and so there have been a number of mergers. some targeting by antitrust regulators as well. getting be a more complex world legally for a lot of health care companies. >> and mergers and antitrust means more lawyers as well. thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, eric holder back in the hot seat. in two minute, would you go on a trip to africa or a foreign destination? you might be paying for one. with the spark miles card from capital one,

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attorney general eric holder has some explaining to do.

the house judiciary committee is extremely mad for spying on the associated press and fox news journalists. he has been refusing to answer questions about the people spied upon. so after back and forth, the attorney general decided to come back? >> he walked up to the end of last week, we gave him that amount of time to schedule a hearing with the committee. came back and said three things. one, he'll answer the letter that we originally sent him a month ago, and he will do it fully. then he'll come up and meet with the chairman, the ranking member of the full committee, subcommittee, myself, jim sensenbrenner, jim con yores, bobby scott. because of the kim case, the leaker in the rosen matter is still under prosecution, he can't answer everything in public, we'll talk to him in private. we'll judge if the answers are

fullsome or we need to do more. >> he denied any knowledge or information about potential prosecution of journalists. is that what you are interested in or not? >> i'm interested in three things, getting the abcs to our questions, which are focused on the james rosen matter. came before the committee, he said with regard to the potential prosecution of reporters. i hadder in heard of that. a judge, watching with the ap says,haven't released this search warrant that i was to seal for 18 months, i unseal it three years later, and took the time to apologize to the american people for being a year and a half late. it give us the information in the warrant, which said not only did they accuse rosen of being a -- a coconspirator in a violation of the he is be on e

espionage law, i don't know how they jive, but we've asked the attorney general to explain this. >> the question asked of him originally, sort of centered on the associated press ap story, that's what justice department is saying. when he answered the question, he didn't know anything about potential prosecutions, thinking only about the ap and not necessarily of rosen, would that be a satisfactory answer or not? >> aprove the whole process with regard to james rosen. approved that, and now we hear that's not particularly their defense. the plan is standard operating procedure to go after the reporter. you go through his e-mails and maybe help you with the leaker, but that's not what the privacy act intended to do. >> every time my clients named

in a search warrant, i have had them arrested. i don't buy that argument. >> allegations serious as they made them for chief washington correspond respondent, why wouldn't they prosecute him. they are lying to congress, lying to the court, or doing both. we want answers to the questions, accountability, and change how this is operating. >> congressman, nice to see you. >> thanks for having me. >> if you work at a news website or comedy show, what caption which you put on this photo? i started a week ago going pro with crest pro-health.

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>> greta: okay everyone it's time to hash it out.

apparently she's now hot on ebay. betty white putting herself up for sale for a good cause. people magazine reporting want to win a date with betty white? it's going to cost you. starting bid $1500 proceeds go to benefit morris animal foundation so good luck, guys and it's your turn to add a caption to this pic. you've been sending us your caption so what will president obama and vladimir putin think something one tweeter user tweets well, obama can i buy you a beer? i'm good at beer summits. caption for obama and putin show whose idea were these counseling sessions again? just use hash tag greta or go to gretawire z take a look. do you see anything wrong? buzz feed reporting the college world series made this almost ironic spelling mistake. ouch. apparently ncaa

nac -- ncaa needs spell check. these guys must like the letter l. they gave it the old college try. and enough to get you out of jail? nfl on fox reporting ochokinko apologized for slapping his attorney on his backside. a judge released him from jail. now, you might remember this video of him slapping his attorney's backside. the judge decided to slap him with 30 days in jail. he apologized and she let him out a little early. let's hope he can keep his hands to himself this time around. and in more oncategory, in one corner, man, other corner, well, you'll see. a nan a must eye boxing match

check out this video. looks like this guy might have a shot this, year, fight dirty. look at him go. why would anyone think it would be a good idea is beyond us. we report, you decide. don't forget use hash tag greta in your tweets and post to us z a man tries sending a message to the president but uses a ♪ [ male announcer ] moving object detection. ♪ blind spot warning. ♪ lane departure warning. safety, down to an art. the nissan altima with safety shield technologies. nissan. innovation that excites. ♪ nissan. innovation that excites. a brand new start. your chance to rise and shine.

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>> greta: want to send a message to the president the quickest way might be easier than you think. >> there is a guy, a crazy guy arrested for jumping over the white house fence and pry triing to spray paint a political message. yeah. does that guy want to get a message to the president he should have written it in an e mail to literally, anyone. >> greta: that is your last call. thank you for being with us tonight. i just put a special thread up about the president's trip to

africa asking if it matters if other presidents also took expensive trips. go to gretawire.com. see you tomorrow night at 10:00 p.m. eastern right here on the record. fox news alert. i am eric bolling with andrea tantaros, dana perino, bob beckel and greg gutfeld. this is "the five." we are about to show you the first time, for the first time a world exclusive interview with the father of ed snowden who blew the whistle on the nsa snooping scandal. he reached out to someone he trusted, that happens to be me. after days of talking and e-mailing with mr. snowden, he agreed to sit down and talks. what follows is a man deeply concerned with the safety of his son and a man deeply concerned